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September 22, 2005

Religious freedom in Malaysia

From AsiaNews...

In a society where those born as Malays are automatically declared to be Muslim, Lina Joy had to fight to be recognized as a Christian. A superior court ruled on Monday 19 September that the Malay people (one out of four ethnic groups – Malay, Chinese, Indians and tribals – of the country) “cannot renounce Islam”: in this way, the judges made it clear to the woman that she cannot practice her faith freely.

Azalina Jailani – who changed her name to Lina Joy in 1998, after converting to Christianity – appeared before a panel composed of three judges (two Muslims and one Hindu), who told her that her renunciation of Islam was “impossible without the permission of Muslim religious authorities”. The judges clarified that the law “does not guarantee, nor does it provide a procedure which obliges the authorities to recognize a change in religion”.

Judge Sri Ram, a Hindu, held that the woman could renounce Islam by declaring that she was not a Muslim however he also added that religious freedom was guaranteed in Malaysia so there should be no need for her to seek permission....

The constitution defines as people of Malay race those citizens of Malaysia who profess Islam, speak the national language and practise Malay culture. Constitutionally, when Malays renounce Islam they cease to be Malay....

Although the law guarantees religious freedom, converts live in fear because Muslims consider apostasy to be a terrible crime. Malay Sharia (Islamic law) punishes apostates with forced “rehabilitation” or imprisonment, and the Korean warns of “death and damnation” for the Muslim who helps another to renounce Islam. Among converts are many students who changed faith while studying for a long time abroad. Others have married Christians and they want the Islamic authorities to recognize their faith and that of their families.

I have numerous friends from Malaysia, and have been told about the systematic discrimination of non-Malays in that nation.

The question remains, though, if Moslems fear conversion so much, then they apparently have little faith in the truth and validity of Islam—wouldn't that be the bigger insult to their religion?

Posted by Danny Carlton at September 22, 2005 06:58 AM

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Comments

Believe not thy enemy.With this worldwide christian hatred against Islam, I do not tend to believe what they say about it. I'd rather study the whole matter from a neutral point of view and how moslems understands it not how christians do.

Posted by: Bocci at February 11, 2006 05:15 AM

Bocci, there's not a worldwide hatred Christian against Islam. There's a worldwide deep mistrust of Islam due to the acts of extremist, coupled by the silence of the rest of Moslems. As for Christians, for the most part, the real Christians seem to be willing to allow Moslems to distance themselves from the acts of extremists, and can't understand why that hasn't happened yet.

But the point remains: If you fear allowing people the freedom to convert then you logically fear that what you have to offer is not strong enough to stand up to the truth. If Islam is the truth, then allow the freedom of religion. It's as simple as that.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at February 11, 2006 09:26 AM

Danny Carlton,

Honestly, how would you feel if a Christian leaves Christianity? You expect your Good Shepherd to herd him back?

Do you (and ANY Christian) understand Islam (the religion) enough to pass comments like such? If you want to know why Islam forbids denouncement, please read the Quran, and seek explanation from a QUALIFIED Islam religious figure, lest you equate Islamic laws to those man-made laws.

Did Lina Joy have enough BASIC understanding of Islam when she denounced Islam? Did she know Islam enough to weight its values?

I had studied the Bible, and I had studied the Quran... I was a Babtist, and once knowing the truth, made the right step and chose Islam. So, before you make any comment regarding Islam denouncement, make sure you know the religion FIRST. My only bet is, once you study Islam and understand it, you might even embrace it. Simply because Islam is the more beautiful the Christianity. Do yourself a favour: be fair to yourself and the truth by studying the Quran.

BTW, would it bother you the same if Lina Joy denounces Islam for say, Hinduism, Taoism or Buddhism? Think about that!

Posted by: AI Abdullah at July 15, 2006 03:32 AM

Honestly, how would you feel if a Christian leaves Christianity? You expect your Good Shepherd to herd him back?

Well, for one thing, the Bible is clear in that once someone truly becomes a Christian, they won't leave it. But, that being said, Christianity is the voluntary commitment of one's life to Jesus Christ. To make any sort of law or force to prevent someone from freely choosing to be or not be a Christian would be completely against Christianity. Interestingly enough, the Koran says that there is no compulsion in religion, so you, as well as those who want to force Lina Joy to be a Moslem, apparently aren't very good Moslems.

Do you (and ANY Christian) understand Islam (the religion) enough to pass comments like such?

It seems I understand it better than you.

 If you want to know why Islam forbids denouncement, please read the Quran, and seek explanation from a QUALIFIED Islam religious figure, lest you equate Islamic laws to those man-made laws.

I have read it, it seems you need to.

Did Lina Joy have enough BASIC understanding of Islam when she denounced Islam? Did she know Islam enough to weight its values?

That would be irrelevant. Any religion should be a choice. Someone who doesn't understand Christianity, would not, therefore, be a Christian. It takes understanding to legitimately be a Christian. Are you claiming, then, that Islam is the religion of fools, who are not expected to actually comprehend what they are forced to accept?

I had studied the Bible, and I had studied the Quran... I was a Babtist, and once knowing the truth, made the right step and chose Islam. 

Wait, why weren't you one before "studying" anything? You are contradicting yourself. You convert after studying, but others are forced to be called Moslem without ever understanding it?

So, before you make any comment regarding Islam denouncement, make sure you know the religion FIRST.

Maybe you should practice what you preach. you seem to be further degrading Islam by claiming it as the religion of idiots.

My only bet is, once you study Islam and understand it, you might even embrace it. Simply because Islam is the more beautiful the Christianity. Do yourself a favour: be fair to yourself and the truth by studying the Quran.

I have read the Koran, and found it a book of foolishness.

BTW, would it bother you the same if Lina Joy denounces Islam for say, Hinduism, Taoism or Buddhism? Think about that!

Yes, it would bother me if she were forced to embrace any religion, even Christianity.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at July 15, 2006 09:48 PM

Danny Carlton,

I am horrified you are a Christian at all!

There is NO compulsion in Islam - Do you know what that means? Assuming you don't have the slightest brain cell in your skull, one has to be an Moslem FIRST for that to be applicable to him/her. Further to that, if he/she is a Moslem, "no compulsion" means he/she is NOT forced to do what he/she can't perform. If Lina Joy had abandoned Islam for Christianity, that does not apply to her, does it?

You wrote: "Well, for one thing, the Bible is clear in that once someone truly becomes a Christian, they won't leave it. " I did. I was a very dedicated Christian until I started to educate myself and read more things - Islam, specifically. But I found out later, the Bible is nothing but a book so tarnished by people who wrote it. And the different versions (in English alone!) seem to cast the religion in different light! Do you really want me to say how flawed the tarnished bible is? And it has nothing to do with the DaVinci code thingy!

I wrote:"BTW, would it bother you the same if Lina Joy denounces Islam for say, Hinduism, Taoism or Buddhism? Think about that!"; to which you replied:"Yes, it would bother me if she were forced to embrace any religion, even Christianity."

Did you know how to read properly? Did I mention ANYTHING about being forced to embrace? I did not say she was FORCED to embrace any religion, but I can sense your emotion when you wrote the reply.

Can you answer just ONE question? What was Jesus' religion before he was "crucified"?????? He couldn't have possibly been a Christian, worshipping himself, right???? So, what was his religion????? I need to know... I had not been successful in getting an answer, despite all the Sunday classes, youth camp, and bible study classes I attended. I want to know his religion, not his ethnicity.

Posted by: AI Abdullah at July 17, 2006 01:32 AM

I am horrified you are a Christian at all!

A pretty meaningless statement given your ignorance of both Christianity as well as Islam.

There is NO compulsion in Islam - Do you know what that means? Assuming you don't have the slightest brain cell in your skull, one has to be an Moslem FIRST for that to be applicable to him/her. 

How convenient. If you find something in the Koran that you disagree with, you simply re-interpret it to whatever you want it to say. So when Mohamed said the is no compulsion in religion, a statement obviously denoting that religion is a choice and cannot be forced, you "interpret" in order to rationalize forcing people to become Moslems. The question one must ask, though, is that how horrible a thing you must think Islam is that anyone would need to be forced to become a Moslem?

Further to that, if he/she is a Moslem, "no compulsion" means he/she is NOT forced to do what he/she can't perform.

"What she cannot perform"?!? That pretty much makes Mohamed's words meaningless, since anyone can claim she "can" perform anything they want her to, regardless of what she actually can or can't do. SHE NEVER CHOSE TO BE A MOSLEM!! She is being forced to be one, by people, who like you, think Islam is a horrible thing that people must be forced to embrace.

 If Lina Joy had abandoned Islam for Christianity, that does not apply to her, does it?

Of course it does. If she chooses Christianity, then to prevent her choice is to compel her, thus the compulsion of religion.

You wrote: "Well, for one thing, the Bible is clear in that once someone truly becomes a Christian, they won't leave it. " I did. I was a very dedicated Christian until I started to educate myself and read more things - Islam, specifically. 

Sorry, lots of people can claim to be a Christian, but it is meaningless unless they have truly accepted Jesus as Lord of their lives. Once that happens, the Holy Spirit will provide the strength to remain faithful. You were playing at being a Christian, but were never truly one. 

But I found out later, the Bible is nothing but a book so tarnished by people who wrote it. And the different versions (in English alone!) seem to cast the religion in different light! Do you really want me to say how flawed the tarnished bible is? And it has nothing to do with the DaVinci code thingy!

Mohamed wrote...

3:3 Step by step has He bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, setting forth the truth which confirms whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations]: for it is He who has bestowed from on high the Torah and the gospel

...and also...

3:48 And he will impart unto thy son revelation, and wisdom, and the Torah, and the gospel,

...and also...

5:47 Let, then, the followers of the gospel judge in accordance with what God has revealed therein: for they who do not judge in the light of what God has bestowed from on high-it is they, they who are truly iniquitous

So it's obvious that he intended people to study the Bible, yet you call it tarnished. You then must belief Mohamed was wrong when he set for the Gospel as "divine", "wisdom", "bestowed from God". 

I wrote:"BTW, would it bother you the same if Lina Joy denounces Islam for say, Hinduism, Taoism or Buddhism? Think about that!"; to which you replied:"Yes, it would bother me if she were forced to embrace any religion, even Christianity."

What religion she coverts to is not the problem, and no, I would object just as much if she were being violently forced to not convert to any religion. the problem is not what religion she wants to convert to or from, but that insane extremists want to force her to pretend to practice and embrace a religion she has not chosen.

Did you know how to read properly? Did I mention ANYTHING about being forced to embrace? I did not say she was FORCED to embrace any religion, but I can sense your emotion when you wrote the reply.

Apparently you can't read very well, because the whole argument is about whether or not someone should be violently forced to embrace a religion. You, obviously, think Islam is such a horrible religion that people must be threatened with horrible things in order to get them to become a Moslem.

Can you answer just ONE question? What was Jesus' religion before he was "crucified"?????? He couldn't have possibly been a Christian, worshipping himself, right???? So, what was his religion????? I need to know... I had not been successful in getting an answer, despite all the Sunday classes, youth camp, and bible study classes I attended. I want to know his religion, not his ethnicity.

Jesus was a practicing Jew during His time on earth. Even His Apostles, after His ascension continued to practice Judaism, but added to it, the completeness of belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For much of the first few centuries after Christ, Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism, and was even referred to as such in many historical documents.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at July 17, 2006 06:52 PM

Danny Carlton,

I do not know how to say this but here goes: You are NOT a Moslem, and you do NOT live here in Malaysia, and you do NOT know what it means/is being a Malay Moslem. I can go on for days and years deliberating this issue with you, but I would be wasting my time. All you need to know now is: There is no compulsion in Islam, and only those who TRULY practice Islam, either born one or a revert, know what it means.

The day Christians understood and accept the content of the Quran, is the day they would embrace Islam. BTW, your explanation about Jesus wasn't new to me. But do yourself a big favour: ponder on what Jesus practiced during his lifetime, align that to the meaning of Islam, and compare that to what modern Christians are doing/preaching. On reaching a conclusion, evaluate if the current version of the bible is indeed intact and as it was meant to be. See if you could find a correlation upon those three items I mentioned.

I do not wish to go on arguing this with you, lest I tresspass boundaries which my religion does not allow me to. I have no intention in b****ing about your religion, as long as you do not b**** about my religion out of your own ignorance and lack of knowledge in Islam. Having said that, I wish you all the best, and may the words carried by the Prophet Muhamad (PBUH) enlighten you at some point. Had I been playing at being a Christian, why did I bother to read both the Bible and the Quran, taking years to compare and ponder? I was looking for reasons to REMAIN a Christian, but Allah the Almighty had his plans, too...

Posted by: AI Abdullah at July 17, 2006 11:08 PM

You are NOT a Moslem, and you do NOT live here in Malaysia, and you do NOT know what it means/is being a Malay Moslem.

Entirely irrelevant. The discussion is not about being a Moslem, but about one person's desire to NOT be forced to pretend to be a Moslem.

I can go on for days and years deliberating this issue with you, but I would be wasting my time. All you need to know now is: There is no compulsion in Islam, and only those who TRULY practice Islam, either born one or a revert, know what it means.

LOL, the world has clearly seen, over and over again, that the vast majority of Moslem use compulsion, and see it as part of their religion.

In today's news...

Sectarian violence out of control in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A Sunni driver lures Shiites into a van by promising jobs — then blows it up, killing 53 people. Sunni gunmen spray bullets and grenades at shoppers, not caring that they include women and children. Shiite death squads roam Baghdad streets, singling out and slaughtering Sunnis.

Then we have Malaysia where a girl is being force to pretend to be a Moslem. And you still say there's no compulsion in Islam.

The day Christians understood and accept the content of the Quran, is the day they would embrace Islam.

That's redundant. To accept it is to embrace it. We understand it, and see it as nonsense.

BTW, your explanation about Jesus wasn't new to me. But do yourself a big favour: ponder on what Jesus practiced during his lifetime, align that to the meaning of Islam, and compare that to what modern Christians are doing/preaching.

Jesus is still alive, and John says that "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God", So Jesus' lifetime would encompass all time as we know it. The Bible is also clear that Jesus practiced what was taught in the Old Testament, but also was baptized. From what I can see of Islam, killing Jews seems to be first and foremost in their "to do" list, so I'm not sure how that, in any way, makes them "friendlier" to Jesus than Christians, who worship Jesus for who He is, God in the flesh.

On reaching a conclusion, evaluate if the current version of the bible is indeed intact and as it was meant to be. See if you could find a correlation upon those three items I mentioned.

The Bible we have to day matches almost exactly to the Dead Sea Scrolls, which lay untouched for almost 2,000 years. So there is more than enough evidence to support the authenticity of the Bible. While Jesus practiced the Judaism of the time (which is very much different than modern Judaism) He did so because the catalyst for change (His crucifixion and resurrection) had not yet occurred. From the behavior of Moslems, Islam apparently means,death to innocent people and blind obedience to whatever crazed lunatic is shouting the most angry curses at Israel and America. Sorry, doesn't quite align with what Jesus has practiced all these years. Modern Christians preach/teach the message of Jesus—hey, that perfectly matches what Jesus practiced, because He also preached and taught His message. Wow, you've convinced me to be a Christian. Good thing I already am one.

I do not wish to go on arguing this with you, lest I tresspass boundaries which my religion does not allow me to.

I've always been curious what those boundaries would be. There doesn't seem to be any boundary preventing the killing innocent people, nor displaying disgust for Islam by insisting on the need to force people to be Moslems. Oh, you can't eat pork. I guess there's got to be a "balance" somewhere.

I have no intention in b****ing about your religion, as long as you do not b**** about my religion out of your own ignorance and lack of knowledge in Islam.

If you force people to pretend to belong to your religion, then I'll continue to complain about it (although I won't use offensive language as you chose to do)

Having said that, I wish you all the best, and may the words carried by the Prophet Muhamad (PBUH) enlighten you at some point. Had I been playing at being a Christian, why did I bother to read both the Bible and the Quran, taking years to compare and ponder? I was looking for reasons to REMAIN a Christian, but Allah the Almighty had his plans, too...

But you said the Bible couldn't be trusted. So why, now do you say you studied it? You don't seem to be on really good terms with the truth.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at July 19, 2006 06:31 AM

You wrote:"From what I can see of Islam, killing Jews seems to be first and foremost in their "to do" list, so I'm not sure how that, in any way, makes them "friendlier" to Jesus than Christians, who worship Jesus for who He is, God in the flesh."

Is this fact or your own interpretation? Where did you read that the killing of Jews is foremost in the Moslems' to do list? You have just proved to me, and any Christian who read this that you fabricated what you wrote. Show me proof of this, and I mean, from YOUR bible or the Qoran, not from any skewed-minded western journalistic crap.

You also wrote:"Wow, you've convinced me to be a Christian. Good thing I already am one.". OK Danny boy, do another thing as I command you: read the Qoran, and speak to a Moslem spiritual person. And I pray that by doing so, you would come out of denial, and accept Islam. You know you want to... so, read the Qoran and pray that your ignorance be cured.

OK, this is my last visit to this site. I am not bowing out because of defeat, for there is no such thing as a fight with the unfit. And I do not fight the unfit. Goodbye, and do not bother posting a reply for me to read, as I will delete your URL as soon as I leave your site. It will NOT yeild a reply from me because a hard-head like you will NEVER accept anything I say. Like I said earlier, it has been a waste of time, and I hope that my effort (although wasting my time) had opened your heart to Islam. I opened my heart to Islam, and (as a fellow human being, although an ex-Christian) I invite you to Islam. It has been the best decision I'd ever made, and I want to share it with you.

Good bye.

Posted by: AI Abdullah at July 19, 2006 09:29 PM

You wrote:"From what I can see of Islam, killing Jews seems to be first and foremost in their "to do" list, so I'm not sure how that, in any way, makes them "friendlier" to Jesus than Christians, who worship Jesus for who He is, God in the flesh."

Is this fact or your own interpretation? Where did you read that the killing of Jews is foremost in the Moslems' to do list? You have just proved to me, and any Christian who read this that you fabricated what you wrote. Show me proof of this, and I mean, from YOUR bible or the Qoran, not from any skewed-minded western journalistic crap.

CBC News -- Vancouver mosque leader preached killing Jews
IMRA -- The Hamas advocates Killing Jews, simply for being Jews
JCPA -- Kill a Jew - Go to Heaven: The Perception of the Jew in Palestinian Society
AISH -- Islam's War Against Jews: Quotes from the Palestinian Authority

I could go on and on. You really should read the news sometime. The papers are full of such stories on almost a daily basis.

You also wrote:"Wow, you've convinced me to be a Christian. Good thing I already am one.". OK Danny boy, do another thing as I command you: read the Qoran, and speak to a Moslem spiritual person. And I pray that by doing so, you would come out of denial, and accept Islam. You know you want to... so, read the Qoran and pray that your ignorance be cured.

I have read the Koran from cover to cover, and found it to be pretty much drivel.

OK, this is my last visit to this site. I am not bowing out because of defeat, for there is no such thing as a fight with the unfit. And I do not fight the unfit. Goodbye, and do not bother posting a reply for me to read, as I will delete your URL as soon as I leave your site. It will NOT yeild a reply from me because a hard-head like you will NEVER accept anything I say. Like I said earlier, it has been a waste of time, and I hope that my effort (although wasting my time) had opened your heart to Islam. I opened my heart to Islam, and (as a fellow human being, although an ex-Christian) I invite you to Islam. It has been the best decision I'd ever made, and I want to share it with you.

Why invite me, why not get a gun and force me the way so many other Moslems do?

Posted by: Danny Carlton at July 20, 2006 09:23 PM

danny carlton,

you seems to hate muslims so much. why? are you really think muslims do all these terrorisme? have you ever thought about a conspiration to blame a muslims, made by policital personnel or anyone with obsession by their fake religion(especeially your kind)?? or are you simply can't accept that kind of conspiration was made by a person who have same religion as you?

you are not living in Malaysia. you don't have any idea how is the situation in here. I'm malaysian. in addition, I'm malay. your point of view is not same as us. so, please step aside from our bussiness and don't ever try to critic us without ever understand our tradition and religion. for god's sake, please dont. you and your kind are just a bunch of idiot who simply make a conclusion without ever study it first. feel ashame for yourself!!

Posted by: osman at July 26, 2006 10:20 PM

you seems to hate muslims so much. why?

Opposing violence is hatred? An odd dictionary you have there.

 are you really think muslims do all these terrorisme?

No, but the rest seem perfectly content to stand by silently without offering to try to oppose it.

have you ever thought about a conspiration to blame a muslims, made by policital personnel or anyone with obsession by their fake religion(especeially your kind)??

No, maybe you you lend me your tinfoil hat to block the radio waves and then I could understand it.

or are you simply can't accept that kind of conspiration was made by a person who have same religion as you?

I accept that there is no conspiracy to falsely accuse Moslems. Why would there need to be, you guys do enough crazy stuff without anyone having to invent anything.

you are not living in Malaysia. you don't have any idea how is the situation in here.

So why does living in Malaysia allow someone to be qualified to understand that forcing someone to practice a religion is somehow okay?

I'm malaysian. in addition, I'm malay. your point of view is not same as us. so, please step aside from our bussiness and don't ever try to critic us without ever understand our tradition and religion. for god's sake, please dont. you and your kind are just a bunch of idiot who simply make a conclusion without ever study it first. feel ashame for yourself!!

You're Malay, which means that you are part of a majority which denies rights to the Chinese in your nation. I know lots of Malaysian Chinese, and when they come to America they are astonished that they are treated so well here. Those with green card work for the same wages as American citizens, there are no tiered pay scales favoring one group over another as you do in Malaysia. It seems tome , being in the oppressing class in a nation notorious for violating the rights of citizen by race and religion, that you are unqualified to pontificate on others criticizing your nation. And I doubt you have the capacity to feel shame, or you would tell people you are Malay.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at July 27, 2006 06:39 AM

god didnt eat, and didnt sleep, god is almighthy, god dont have a son, think about it!!! deeply. high rangking people from christian religious is hiding the truth.


they know issac (jesus) is a human son of maryam.
Not son of god, god is great. Do you taste sweet when you drinks coca cola? explain what is the taste of sweet that u feel?

Jesus is not god.
Jesus is a messanger from al mighthy god. You see the sea , u sea the earth , use your greatest mind which has been created by almighty god

Posted by: azmi at July 30, 2006 12:41 AM

god didnt eat, and didnt sleep, god is almighthy, god dont have a son, think about it!!! deeply. high rangking people from christian religious is hiding the truth.

A long string on non sequitors. God doesn't eat? Says who? Why wouldn't He? I'll admit that I find it unlikely that He sleeps, but that hardly is proof of any of the other nonsense you've spouted here. God does have a Son: Jesus. That you think "high ranking" Christians are hiding some "truth" denotes more of your own difficulty with reality than anything else. I wouldn't claim high ranking members of any religion are disingenuous in their beliefs. It doesn't mean they're right, but to assume they know they're wrong would logically demand proof of such a claim.

they know issac (jesus) is a human son of maryam.

Isaac was Abraham's son. Jesus is the son of Mary, who became pregnant while a virgin, by God's Holy Spirit. He is God's son. You seem to have a poor grasp of the Bible for wanting to pontificate about it.

Not son of god, god is great. Do you taste sweet when you drinks coca cola? explain what is the taste of sweet that u feel?

What exactly are you smoking?

Jesus is not god.

Oh, but He is. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Jesus is a messanger from al mighthy god.

Yet He Himself proclaims Himself not only God's Son, but God Himself. You don't trust who you claim is God's messenger? Why?

You see the sea , u sea the earth , use your greatest mind which has been created by almighty god

Now you're babbling again.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at July 30, 2006 04:37 PM

Danny Carlton,

I made a vow NOT to visit your rubbish site again... Well, I am breaking this promise because you had further insulted my RELIGION, COUNTRY and most importantly (to you), CHRISTIANITY.

I am here again because I was asked to by a fellow Malaysian, who said I must do something. Yes, indeed I will.

Danny Carlton,

You wrote: "You're Malay, which means that you are part of a majority which denies rights to the Chinese in your nation. I know lots of Malaysian Chinese, and when they come to America they are astonished that they are treated so well here."

You have no idea what it REALLY is here, and you better stop believing in your Chinese friends. I am a Chinese Moslem, here in Malaysia. I used to work for a company which is highly supported by the local, Malay Government. I was paid close to RM10, 000 per month (that's a HIGH figure here in Malaysia! Another few thousands, I would've been on the same rank as a Deputy Minister!). I am a Chinese, and did they discriminate me against the rest of the native Malays? And mind you, I am not a degree holder, therefore, not having much chance of making a good living. But I did. That is proof that the Chinese (or any other ethnicity) was, is and never will be discriminated when it comes to job opportunities. In fact, the Chinese are the ones driving around in big expensive cars here. Tell you what, don't take my word squarely: come here for a visit and please bring your eyes with you. Look around and tell me I was wrong. I will show you how rich the Chinese are. I challenge you on this, if indeed you find me or the rest of my Moslem friends untrustworthy. You have my e-mail address, so please let me know if you are grown up enough to take this challenge. I don't mind contacting my former church to sponsor your flight and lodging here. I am serious about this.

You also wrote this: "A long string on non sequitors. God doesn't eat? Says who? Why wouldn't He?" Now, if I show this to my former Pastor, he would say this statement is blasphemous. Do you REALLY know your God??? For the whole period I was a Christian, my pastor NEVER said anything about God EATING. Neither did the bible, NIV or King James! What bible have YOU been using??? Do God REALLY have to depend on food for subsistence????? Not very strong of a god if he had to, I'd say! (Please stop me! Laughing loud enough to fall off my chair!)

You further wrote: "Oh, but He is. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." You (and majority of the Christian community) actually though it means they are the same "person"??? If YOUR god is almighty and powerful, would He need to "transform" himself to be a human being just so that the people of the land would take him (and his religion) seriously??? He needed to be a human being to make human beings see his message??? God Allah the Almighty is mighty powerful enough to turn a man's heart to his religion, if he wants so! Do not equate God's power and capabilities to that of us mortals! God (Allah) can do anything as he wills, and he always does!

You ALSO wrote: "Yet He Himself proclaims Himself not only God's Son, but God Himself." What??? He is the son of himself??? He impregnates Mary so that he gains a passage to earth??? He needed to do that??? Hello???? He OWNS the earth. He doesn't need humanly ways to be present on the earth... He is powerful enough to do ANYTHING he wishes, so why would he "transform" himself to get his message across??? Remember: He was powerful enough to carve the Ten Commandments on two rock-solid tablets for Moses to convey the message. Yet, he had to be "born" into society to spread his message????? Think about it!

Danny Carlton,

I used to be angry at you for all the things you posted here, including your bad comments - sarcastic to say the least. I am no longer angry, as your insecurity is slowly surfacing... I sympathize with you, and I hope you would really soon pick up the Qoran, read it and get the help of a Moslem cleric to help you understand it.

I keep no anger at you, you are not my enemy, ok? But I do strongly urge you to consider Islam, since Christianity seems to have done a bit of damage to your life. Listen to me: I was a Christian too, so I know what it is like, wanting to hold on to the Scriptures and the promises of Christianity. I was a very pious Christian, ambitious at times... I am now feeling the real meaning of "living"... You may not be convinced (about Islam) through what you see in the newspapers and tv, but I am a real living person... I have been a Christian long enough to tell you the difference... People do not accept Islam because they did not understand Islam... If you really want to understand Islam, you have to first read the Qoran without any prejudice (i.e. forget that you are a Christian for the time being) and let the Qoran shape your understanding and touch you. If you read the Qoran with a strong Christian heart, you are not giving it the necessary space to make real sense to you... So, I hope you take my advice, read the Qoran with an open mind and without prejudice, and see where it brings you...

I hope you hoard no ill feeling toward my intention...

Posted by: AI Abdullah at July 31, 2006 09:35 PM

You wrote: "You're Malay, which means that you are part of a majority which denies rights to the Chinese in your nation. I know lots of Malaysian Chinese, and when they come to America they are astonished that they are treated so well here."

You have no idea what it REALLY is here, and you better stop believing in your Chinese friends. I am a Chinese Moslem, here in Malaysia.

You have joined the religion of the majority, and want to claim that that has had no affect on how you are treated. That Moslems are given special treatment in Malaysia has been shown very clearly. So the rest of what you say on the matter is nonsense. Chinese and non-Moslems are treated unfairly in Malaysia. Perhaps now we see your real motive for abandoning the pretense of one religion for the pretense of another.

You also wrote this: "A long string on non sequitors. God doesn't eat? Says who? Why wouldn't He?" Now, if I show this to my former Pastor, he would say this statement is blasphemous. Do you REALLY know your God??? For the whole period I was a Christian, my pastor NEVER said anything about God EATING. Neither did the bible, NIV or King James! What bible have YOU been using??? Do God REALLY have to depend on food for subsistence????? Not very strong of a god if he had to, I'd say! (Please stop me! Laughing loud enough to fall off my chair!)

Eating is not always done because one has to. The Bible is silent on whether or not God has ever eaten anything, so it would be presumptuous to claim He has or has not.

You further wrote: "Oh, but He is. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." You (and majority of the Christian community) actually though it means they are the same "person"??? If YOUR god is almighty and powerful, would He need to "transform" himself to be a human being just so that the people of the land would take him (and his religion) seriously??? He needed to be a human being to make human beings see his message??? God Allah the Almighty is mighty powerful enough to turn a man's heart to his religion, if he wants so! Do not equate God's power and capabilities to that of us mortals! God (Allah) can do anything as he wills, and he always does!

God doesn't have to do anything. But He chooses to. Only One was and is righteous enough to be a propitiation for our sin. That God took human form and offered Himself a sacrifice for our sins is a demonstration of His love for us. He didn't have to do it. He chose to.

You ALSO wrote: "Yet He Himself proclaims Himself not only God's Son, but God Himself." What??? He is the son of himself??? He impregnates Mary so that he gains a passage to earth??? He needed to do that??? Hello???? He OWNS the earth. He doesn't need humanly ways to be present on the earth... He is powerful enough to do ANYTHING he wishes, so why would he "transform" himself to get his message across??? Remember: He was powerful enough to carve the Ten Commandments on two rock-solid tablets for Moses to convey the message. Yet, he had to be "born" into society to spread his message????? Think about it!

You seem to have such a limited view of God, as if He does thing because He has to. There is nothing He has to do. He is God. That we even exist is an example of a choice He made. Nothing can force God to do anything, so using the argument that "He doesn't need to" implies He is weak. Perhaps that's why you Moslems feel the need to force people to pretend to accept your religion, because you think God Himself is a weak being that is forced to do things.

I keep no anger at you, you are not my enemy, ok? But I do strongly urge you to consider Islam, since Christianity seems to have done a bit of damage to your life. Listen to me: I was a Christian too,

No, you pretended to be a Christian. When one truly becomes a Christian, they will remain so.

so I know what it is like, wanting to hold on to the Scriptures and the promises of Christianity. I was a very pious Christian, ambitious at times...

Christianity is not about "piety" nor "ambition". You were trying to drive a car by pushing it from behind with the brake on, rather than taking the key and sitting in the driver's seat. We aren't Christians because we are good. Being a Christian means being empowered by the Holy Spirit to do good works.

I am now feeling the real meaning of "living"... You may not be convinced (about Islam) through what you see in the newspapers and tv, but I am a real living person...

Who is terribly confused about religion, and ignores the bloodshed committed in the name of Islam. I find that very sad.

I have been a Christian long enough to tell you the difference...

No, you've never been a Christian.

People do not accept Islam because they did not understand Islam...

Unless a gun is pointed at their head, right.

If you really want to understand Islam, you have to first read the Qoran without any prejudice (i.e. forget that you are a Christian for the time being) and let the Qoran shape your understanding and touch you.

I have read the Koran, and it is fairly meaningless. I see confusion in you, and obviously that is how one must be in order to accept a religion that promotes the killing of innocent people.

 If you read the Qoran with a strong Christian heart, you are not giving it the necessary space to make real sense to you...

You say that like it's a bad thing.

So, I hope you take my advice, read the Qoran with an open mind and without prejudice, and see where it brings you...

It brought me to the conclusion that Islam is simply another false religion invented by Satan to confuse people and draw them away from Jesus. Molsem reinforce that conclusion daily.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at August 1, 2006 06:40 AM

Innalillah, Danny Carlton... Inallilah....

So, bottomline is, are you coming here (MALAYSIA) to see for yourself, or are you happy relying on others' words? I dare challenge you to this because I have evidence and I know I am right. All it takes is just you wanting to come here to see. Taking my challenge? I can arrange for a free trip for you, with the help of my former church. Really, I mean it!

BTW, I was offered the high paying job BEFORE I converted to Islam. I was a Chinese Christian then... Don't that make you feel like slapping yourself in the face, for jumping to conclusions? I had reserved that bit of info to trap you! Ha Ha Ha!!! A check with my former employer can confirm that. And I converted to Islam without someone pointing a gun at me. No converts (or REVERTS) converted at gunpoint. Where did you get that idea? Man, are you sure you live in the States and not some least developed country?

OK, just one visit to Malaysia, and I can change your narrow mind. Be a man, take up my challenge, if the truth is what you want. So???

Posted by: AI Abdullah at August 1, 2006 08:38 PM

danny carlton,

you stupid, idiot, monkey, you will go to hell with all your comment about islam and muslim. you will burnt there and ALLAH will never forgive you . AMIN...ALLAHU AKBAR!!!!!!

Posted by: yonglaa at August 1, 2006 10:09 PM

Danny Carlton,

You wrote: “God doesn't have to do anything. But He chooses to. Only One was and is righteous enough to be a propitiation for our sin. That God took human form and offered Himself a sacrifice for our sins is a demonstration of His love for us. He didn't have to do it. He chose to."

Man, you contradict yourself BIG time! (or was it the bible?)... You said Jesus and God is one. God turns himself into Jesus to come to the world to die on the cross so that whoever believes in him (Jesus) shall be pardoned of his sins? God BECAME Jesus so that he can forgive your sins? He has to become human and die so that he may forgive the sinners? What a load of crap! God forgives whoever he wants to. He does NOT need to appear in human form, die on the cross (and earn sympathy) in order to forgive sinners.

BTW, honestly, why should anyone want to die to redeem others? What kind of philosophy is that? Everybody is responsible for his or her own crime and sins right? What kind of drama is this bible fable? The almighty being born into the world as a human being, crucified NOT for his own sins but die for the sins of others????

And partaking the Holy Communion, eating of the bread makes the flesh of Jesus one with yours? What's the point of taking the bread, and be "one" with Jesus, when at the end of your life, Jesus had actually died for you?

Danny Carlton,

You can simply go and commit crimes, you know? Jesus had died on the cross to wash away your sins, remember??? Go on, indulge in all kinds of sins... don't worry man, even if the US law finds you guilty, why worry when Jesus had already redeemed you??? You will end up in paradise with him... Go on, rob a 7-11, smoke pot, rape a chick, it doesn’t matter... Jesus had redeemed your sins, in advance when he died on the cross...

Assuming you have the slightest of IQ, do you think God will hold another person responsible for your sins? Or, (since you said Jesus and God is one, and Jesus is the son of God) that he held "himself" responsible for your sins???

Jesus is merely a human being, singled out to lead the people of his time to the righteous path. Mary's pregnancy is a miracle (even the Qoran says so), impregnated by God thru his mysterious way, so that the extraordinary birth of Jesus may set Him apart from other human beings, more divine than any people his peer. Is he God? For heaven's sake, NO! Is he special? YES, he is conceived in a mysterious way, and he is born for a divine purpose, to be a prophet... But that does NOT make him the son of God, nor God himself! He is a chosen one, the very same way Muhammad (PBUH) is after him...

I am gentleman enough to offer you a chance to see Malaysia for yourself. Please come, if you CARE about the truth. Don't need to give me excuses if you decline it... If the truth matters to you, you would do all it takes, to come here to see the truth. Also, ask your Malaysian Chinese friends along as well, for I think they have NOT been in Malaysia, or they were merely exaggerating things for you. Again, you don't have to take my words squarely. Just come here for a visit, see for yourself...OK? Take this challenge to see for yourself, ok?

"Ya Allah ya Rabb... Kau ampunilah hambaMu yang bernama Danny Carlton ini... Kau terangilah hatinya, agar imannya dapatKau tetapkan dalam agamaMu... Ya Rabb... Kau lindungilah umatMu di dunia sementara ini, Kau lindungilah hamba-hambaMu yang taat padaMu, dan Kau ampunilah mereka yang sesat, mahupun mereka yang menyebarkan kesesatan... Kau hancurkanlah musuh-musuhMu yang menganiaya hamba-hambuMu di Lubnan dan Palastin...Segala puji-pujian buat Mu, Tuhan seluruh alam... Amin... Amin... Amin...."

Posted by: AI Abdullah at August 2, 2006 05:05 AM

So, bottomline is, are you coming here (MALAYSIA) to see for yourself, or are you happy relying on others' words? I dare challenge you to this because I have evidence and I know I am right. All it takes is just you wanting to come here to see. Taking my challenge? I can arrange for a free trip for you, with the help of my former church. Really, I mean it!

I don't need to come to Malaysia to confirm what I read in the papers, and has been told to me repeatedly by Chinese from Malaysia.

BTW, I was offered the high paying job BEFORE I converted to Islam. I was a Chinese Christian then... Don't that make you feel like slapping yourself in the face, for jumping to conclusions?

Like the conclusion you jumped to in assuming you were a Christian? Y'know, I can claim I'm a purple martian, and there'd be no way to prove I'm not. One anonymous person, who endorses the violence of Moslems, is hardly a valid source of anything. There's no way of knowing if you are even Chinese. Moslems lie all the time, you guys consider it okay as long as the "effort" is to defend Islam.

I had reserved that bit of info to trap you! Ha Ha Ha!!! A check with my former employer can confirm that.

A check with another Moslem, more than willing to lie. Just look at Qana in Lebanon. There the Moslem terrorists rounded up innocent women and children and murdered them by blowing up the building the imprisoned them in, so they could then blame Israel. You guys would do or say anything.

 And I converted to Islam without someone pointing a gun at me.

But you still think it's okay to make someone "convert" by pointing a gun at them, as in the case of Lina Joy.

No converts (or REVERTS) converted at gunpoint. Where did you get that idea? Man, are you sure you live in the States and not some least developed country?

First there's the story above. Then there's the hundreds upon hundreds of stories emerging daily about Moslems using violence to force people to convert to Islam, or not convert from Islam. Just today there's a story about an Iranian, threatened with prison because he left Islam. Your lies sound hollow in the face of reality.

OK, just one visit to Malaysia, and I can change your narrow mind. Be a man, take up my challenge, if the truth is what you want. So???

There's no need when so many Malaysians agree with me. You are the one with the closed mind.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at August 2, 2006 06:03 AM

You wrote: “God doesn't have to do anything. But He chooses to. Only One was and is righteous enough to be a propitiation for our sin. That God took human form and offered Himself a sacrifice for our sins is a demonstration of His love for us. He didn't have to do it. He chose to."

Man, you contradict yourself BIG time! (or was it the bible?)... You said Jesus and God is one. God turns himself into Jesus to come to the world to die on the cross so that whoever believes in him (Jesus) shall be pardoned of his sins? God BECAME Jesus so that he can forgive your sins? He has to become human and die so that he may forgive the sinners? What a load of crap! God forgives whoever he wants to. He does NOT need to appear in human form, die on the cross (and earn sympathy) in order to forgive sinners.

So now you are dictating what God does and why? I never said God needed to do anything. He did it by choice. It satisfied His divine sense of justice for our sins to be paid for, so He did it. You seem to think of God in such limited terms. Perhaps that's why Moslems disgrace their religion so often with violence and other foolishness. They think God is a poor, pathetic creature that serves only their whims.

BTW, honestly, why should anyone want to die to redeem others? What kind of philosophy is that? Everybody is responsible for his or her own crime and sins right? What kind of drama is this bible fable? The almighty being born into the world as a human being, crucified NOT for his own sins but die for the sins of others????

We are unable to redeem ourselves. While God can do anything, we certainly can't. Without those sins being paid for, we would be unfit for God's presence. Just as a mother cleans the poop off her baby before cuddling it, God chose the cross to clean us before we could come to Him. But we have to accept His gift.

And partaking the Holy Communion, eating of the bread makes the flesh of Jesus one with yours? What's the point of taking the bread, and be "one" with Jesus, when at the end of your life, Jesus had actually died for you?

The Lord's Supper is a symbol. It is meant for Christians to understand, therefore it is beyond your comprehension.

You can simply go and commit crimes, you know? Jesus had died on the cross to wash away your sins, remember??? Go on, indulge in all kinds of sins... don't worry man, even if the US law finds you guilty, why worry when Jesus had already redeemed you??? You will end up in paradise with him... Go on, rob a 7-11, smoke pot, rape a chick, it doesn’t matter... Jesus had redeemed your sins, in advance when he died on the cross...

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." — Romans 6:1-4

Assuming you have the slightest of IQ, do you think God will hold another person responsible for your sins? Or, (since you said Jesus and God is one, and Jesus is the son of God) that he held "himself" responsible for your sins???

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." — 1st John 4:10

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; " — Romans 3:23-25

Jesus is merely a human being, singled out to lead the people of his time to the righteous path.

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" — 2nd Peter 1:1

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." — Acts 20:28

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." — John 1:1-3, 14

I am gentleman enough to offer you a chance to see Malaysia for yourself. Please come, if you CARE about the truth. Don't need to give me excuses if you decline it... If the truth matters to you, you would do all it takes, to come here to see the truth. Also, ask your Malaysian Chinese friends along as well, for I think they have NOT been in Malaysia, or they were merely exaggerating things for you. Again, you don't have to take my words squarely. Just come here for a visit, see for yourself...OK? Take this challenge to see for yourself, ok?

Sorry, but I'll simply take the word of those I know I can trust over that of one who would endorse violence, and rationalize cruelty.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at August 2, 2006 06:25 AM

[Comment deleted for excessive profanity]

Posted by: AI Abdullah at August 2, 2006 10:07 PM

[Comment deleted for excessive profanity]

Posted by: AI Abdullah at August 3, 2006 08:07 PM

It is now 1725HRS local time (Malaysia, probably 0530HRS Eastern Time in US). No response as to whether my repost (of the original) is "excessive profanity". Either there is no visitors here, or... or.... another media black-out?

Posted by: AI Abdullah at August 4, 2006 04:31 AM

It's very obvious that you've repeatedly lied about who you are and what you are, and continuing to post profanity will get you permanently banned from the site.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at August 4, 2006 10:45 AM

I am a Malaysian and am in the same situation as Lina. I am a Christian, dating a Muslim. In order for us to be married, I have to convert to Islam as the laws in this country does not allow a muslim to marry a non-muslim. I love my religion and intend to remain a Christian but because of my decision to remain a christian, my rights of being with the man i love is taken away.

Many non-muslims in this country are forced to convert as it's the only way for them to marry their muslim partners. It is not by choice.

I also love my country, therefore I do not wish to run away to another country to get married just because the laws of my country will not recognise our marriage (don't u agree this is forced upon me to accept a religion i do not believe just because i wish to marry a muslim? whom by the way is forced to stay in this religion just because it's against the law for a muslim to officially convert to another religion?)

I am praying that our judicial system will be fair and just. To allow its citizens like Lina and my boyfriend to practise the religion of their choice.

The decision of the court will effect the decision on my life.

Posted by: JW at August 6, 2006 09:59 AM

it is sad that one can simply judge only through reading on the newspaper of how a country and what it is facing now.

Posted by: ezra at August 10, 2006 06:25 AM

Ezra,

If you choose to read western papers, you see things from a western perspective. if you read eastern papers, you see things from an eastern perspective. But there are people who'd only choose to read and believe in the western press. And since when would the western press favour the eastern perspective?

Orang mesia ke ni?


Cheers!

Posted by: Just Passing By at August 10, 2006 09:28 PM

hi,
these comments attract me to read... more and more... i love to read what AI Abdullah comments... i agree with him... and i had 1 question... why you should deleted the comments from AI Abdullah???? i don't think he would say something that has 'excessive profanity' before... or... you don't want to accept what he had said???????

Posted by: just passing by too.. at August 17, 2006 03:40 AM

these comments attract me to read... more and more... i love to read what AI Abdullah comments... i agree with him... and i had 1 question... why you should deleted the comments from AI Abdullah???? i don't think he would say something that has 'excessive profanity' before... or... you don't want to accept what he had said???????

I deleted them because they were full of nasty words. But I left his other comments. So the implication that I deleted two of his TEN comments because I don't want to accept what he has to say, tells me you don't have a very good grasp of logic yourself. But that would be expected from anyone trying to defend his nonsense.

Posted by: Danny Carlton at August 17, 2006 12:36 PM

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